Wig Worry Part 2
When K and I made last week’s comic, we already had a plan to include a Part 2 that featured some of the reactions my more feminine appearance elicited from men. I’d like to start this out by saying: Of course not all men are like this/do this/say these things, etc. K and I are surrounded by awesome men in our lives daily, which I think is what made this experience even more jarring for me. I know men can act like decent, respectable human beings — but for some reason when I appear more feminine of center it seems to invite a certain type of somewhat invasive attention that I don’t ordinarily experience.
I usually appear masculine, if not just downright surly and I’m used to being respected. That’s a sentence I just had to type. I’m used to being respected for appearing more like a dude. That’s the unfortunate rub of it and the experience of being treated in any other way is just a sobering feeling. I’d also like to make a point that other than the wig, no, nothing was different from my usual appearance or carriage, yet as soon as I popped it on and tied it out of my face (I’m still not used to hair in my eyes) it was like turning into a different person in society’s eyes. I was a glowing beacon, apparently saying “Come bother me! And by all means, interrupt whatever I’m doing!”
What’s most odd about the experience was that a lot men seemed to feel entitled to my time, appearance and even my groceries. I didn’t detail everything that happened in the days since I’ve had the wig, but there were plenty of times where men would go out of their way to demand something of me — hell, even just being told to “smile”? Really? Should I have curtsied when our conversation was at an end and thanked him for his polite instruction on the way I held my face?
We keep teaching boys it’s okay to behave this way. “Boys will be boys” is not a motto that belongs in any society. At best, it’s disrespectful to others and at worst, it’s a poisonous concept that creates dangerous situations and a lack of boundaries.
All in all, it was an eye-opening few days. Sorry for those of you disappointed in the lack of punchline in this comic, but once we sat down and compiled some events that fit the theme, it just didn’t strike us as that funny either.
yep, I noticed a dramatic change when I cut my hair really short. I’m going for a more androgynous look (having really short hair with my round face just makes me look like a little boy and that felt as wrong as having my long curly hair and looking super fem), but its not really working? (my hair is short on one side and long on the other) I suspect its because my hair is curly and my boobs are pretty big? Although from some angles people have called me sir so *shrug*. I wish there was a social title that everyone knew that was between sir and miss/ma’am
To be fair, I know it doesn’t have the connotation anymore, but ‘sir’ is a general term of respect. Doesn’t specifically have to have a gender assigned to it.
But I see the point all the same – had long hair, as a male, and got called ‘miss’ or ‘ma’am’ a lot. My hair was super pretty, though. So, yeah, ‘hey you’ should be fine in all cases. >_<
…”Sir” is absolutely gendered. That’s WHY it’s a “general” term of respect, just like how “dude” or “guys” is a “general” term to refer to any old person or a group of people. Masculine terms and men have been seen as the default since forever, which is part of the problem here.
That is true. In the military, both male and female officers are called “Sir”. I was in the AF for 12 years, so I carry myself in a military fashion. I had shaved my head for Kids With Cancer a few years back and liked the look. Well to this day, I cannot go into the woman’s room in public without getting stopped. Even though I wear a 40DD and wear long dangling earrings, I get stopped. They must think I am a very bad drag queen….LOL
Mx. is the honorific, gender-neutral title.
I am a person with a feminine appearance. Sometimes I find the thought of going out in public alone to be daunting. Saying “no” can be extremely difficult, especially when there is a great deal of societal pressure directed at girls and women to be accomodating, to smooth over social interactions, to play nice. This starts at a very young age and overcoming it can be a daily battle. There are people who think that whatever I am doing is automatically less important than the interaction they want to have with me because I am feminine in appearance and in a public space. The majority of people aren’t like this. But the people who are loom larger in my headspace.
Just like my experience when I started living as (feminine and) female. My, was that a rude awakening. I’m starting to think I should carry jeans to wear and a hat I can hide my long hair in when I go out on Friday nights and expect I might have to walk back alone.
It’s times like these when it’s pretty hard not to sigh and say something like, “Geez, men suck.” And I’m a dude.
I’m transitioning FTM. When I started presenting more masculine, I was shocked at how men left me alone in public. Just a shocking silence, as I was allowed to go about my business without interruption. I had always taken for granted that everyone dealt with these douchebags, but apparently it’s just feminine people. Nobody tells me to smile, nobody tries to get my number, nobody bothers me now. It’s shocking how normalized this invasive behavior is, and how so many people downplay it.
Im MTF and Im still surprized how men behave sometimes. Like having a guy ask for my number out of nowhere or a dude walking past me on the sideway and telling me that Im cute. I even had constructionsite workers whistle at me. I generally enjoy how much easier it is to not be as distanced from other people, but from some people I really just want to be left alone.
Most people dont notice those things I guess, but if you know both sides you clearly see the differences.
I have to say as a male, both gender and sex, raised in this society I was thankfully not brainwashed into this way of thinking. My upbringing generally consisted of a handful of rules which amounted to “question everything” and “respect everyone” or “treat everyone as you’d like to be treated” and such. So these situations seem so weird to me.
First, I also get the “smile” command on a semi regular basis when working. My default face is neutral bordering on grumpy because that is my general state of being. When I smile it’s because I’m nervous to terrified, usually in some sort of social situation, at leas the majority of the time it is. Having a more stoic neutral face is what I’m comfortable with, and I hate people insisting it isn’t right or normal. It is for me. I smile like this 😐
As for the second panel, I also have an insight to what this is like. Apparently I’m very desirable to other males who are seeking a male companion, and the way they approach me is pretty much insulting. Even the ones who appear nice tend to eventually break down and drop a line like “lets get high and naked” or drunk or whatever. I know not all guys are like this, but based on my current sampling it certain feels like it. I can only assume that the kind of person who is more likely to approach you is the kind of person who is more likely to try and lead things, and just as likely to not care what you think about it, or at least insist they know how you should think about it…
As for the third panel, I hate this. I feel so bad for female couples. I can relate in that I am a very privet person, and what I do with someone else should be privet unless we decide otherwise. The idea of someone approaching me and a partner and asking to watch what they assume must be happening later is all kinds of wrong. It’d be different if I was in a setting where these kind of questions might come up, like some place where people seek extra people for their fun, but to have this happen on a regular basis in public seems like a total breakdown of human decency.
And finally… boys will be boys. I can go on and on with why I hate this statement, but all of it ignored the very glaring double standard of gender that I never before observed. I’ve never analysed it from the view of a more gender conscious frame of mind. Why is it “boys will be boys” and not “kids will be kids?” This is clearly what it should be, because the behavior is inherit in all children, it’s just taught to girls that young ladies don’t act like this, while boys get away with all the child like evil that is inherit in everyone. I hate this. I hate all of this. I know not all men act like this, but as a man I still feel somehow responsible. However all I can do, all we can do, men, women, and variations of… is to respect each individual as such, separate of their biology, and judge them by their actions and ideas. Maybe… then again what do I know.
Thank you for your time, those of you that bothered.
M.S.
TL:DR
Some people suck, about half of them are men, don’t be any of them.
I’ve really loved these past two comics, thank you so much for making them. And I’m glad you got something out of them too 🙂
I can only imagine that’s an experiment many sociologists would sell their souls to the Devil to experience.
Christ, did some dude seriously ask “Can I watch you too later?” Did he even seem aware of how much of a tosspot he was being?
Yyyyep, I’ve had that happen before (I’m a femme who dates femmes.) It’s . . . really icky.
(I’m bisexual and also have relationships with men, but nobody ever asks if they can watch US!)
A dude in my girlfriend’s nursing class asked if he could “join us sometime” after she told him she had a girlfriend. They were just politely getting to know each other and bam, out comes the sexist bullshit. She laughed awkwardly and never talked to him again, lol.
More misandry?
NO!
*gold star*
😀
Like!
Dude, there’s a difference between calling out dicks on being dickish, and hating all men.
If anything is misandrist, it is the “boys will be boys” mentality that gives a few antisocial bullies a free pass to terrorize everyone else. It is the same mentality that tells the boys among the victims of bullying to “man up” and learn how to fight fire with fire. This way, even socially well-adjusted and empathetic boys are taught to solve their problems through aggression, intimidation, violence and disrespect, which of course affects the way in which they’ll approach women later on. This kind of gender programming and emotional dulling is the real misandry.
I thank you -so- much for this! That kind of ‘boys will be boys’ mentality hurts both sides and its perpetuated by men -and- women around these kids.
Never really thought of it that way, but now that I do, you’ve got a point.
They told me to “Man up” I’m a 44 D now. I don’t think it took. 😉
There is a term I discovered which describes what I try to execute as much as possible. It states that you shall (not) treat others the way you (do not) want to be treated yourself. Strangely enough, it is actually called “Golden Rule”. Though being a GOLDEN RULE, it is not common within the common folk. Which is rather strange.
I never encountered any such behaviour towards me, but since I take an interest in many things considered “nerdy”, I can somehow relate. And I think it’s a pretty interesting topic.
On a completely unrelated sidenote: Have you ever onsidered joining tapastic? I think it’s a great platform for web comic artists. No, I’m not working for them, but a friend of mine started publishing comics on that platform and managed to establish a weekly comic which she never really considered withing her motivation.
I actually just wrote a piece on one of the pages I run about your last panel! When I saw that I was all, “OMG! I just wrote about this!” (Not kidding, scared the cats and everything) My whole piece was about why we see all these post about girls going after the “bad guy” or why they stay with men who abuse them. If we just stand back and look at what girls are told as children when boys are mean to them…it kind of makes it a lot clearer. When younger, a girl is often told, “If he’s mean to you that means he likes you!”…after a while, psychologically speaking, the girl can begin to see the mean treatment as equaling love, and well…there’s a reason why the shows like Cops have all those girls going through guy after guy after guy who’re nothing but criminals who abuse them….
I’ve also noticed that since I cut my hair short from having hair to the middle of my shoulder blades, that one of two things happens: Either I’m asked if I’m a lesbian who likes to munch rug, or if I’m “trying out men” (when I’m with my husband). Why can’t they get it through their heads that 1) I like my hair short because I don’t like having to spend a lot of time every day getting ready and 2) I have such fine hair all I can do it put it in a ponytail if it’s long.
Not to mention, when I did a hairstyle that left the back short but the bangs long, first comment from a guy I got was, “Hey, do you have your hair like that so I can hang on better when you give me head?”
Yet I’M a misandrist for telling him to go take a long walk off a short pier?
I have seen this in my daily life at work thanks to my place of employment. (Biggest soul sucking retail corporation in the world.) I always want to speak up and say something to the people I see behaving this way towards women but sadly I cannot for fear of being written up. As a male, I hate seeing other men act this way because it gives all of us a bad reputation. I’ve tried hard to overcome the stereotype that has been put out there by these bad examples. On a flip side, I do get told to smile a lot because I particularly don’t care to smile unless I’m in a really good mood or I find something amusing, otherwise my expression is rather neutral, like yours is in the first panel. As Alex has mentioned, I too, was raised with the “golden rule” and a handful of others like; “A man never hits a woman”, “Treat women with respect/ Treat women like they’re royalty”, and more along those lines. So when I see this behavior it really sickens me and even though I have nothing to do with the way other men behave towards women, I am really sorry you were treated this way.
Kellenn
seeing that last one hit a nerve boys will be boys is crap and i have to agree that it should never be a thing said. even today i was just chatting online and kept having a guy hit on me, its like dude take the hint of NO
This depiction of real life distresses me, mostly because it’s true. Ugh.
I may be wrong, but I feel like a certain amount of the issue may be regional in nature. I worked for a long time on a schooner that did day trips for tourists. It was a pretty physical job and I tended to dress very masculine. In the time I worked there I would almost always encounter far more harassment and generally rude behavior toward women in one summer than I had my entire life growing up in this same area. Once a passenger informed me that I would never find a husband if I kept acting like a man. The point is, 90% of the issues I had came from people from away. I’m wondering if there are different parts of the country that have a higher or lower instance of unpleasant humans?
Oh good LORD. Let me get this straight. Some dude, complete stranger, never met you before in his life, came up to you and HELD your face? Like straight up started touching your face outta nowhere?
I literally cannot comprehend a thought process that would convince someone that that is an okay thing to do.
I’m a dude myself, and I’d never do anything like that. That’s just awkward and intrusive. I’m sorry that happened.
I don’t know for certain what really happened, but I believe what Stiffler was saying that the guy told her to smile. When she said, “Should I have curtsied when our conversation was at an end and thanked him for his polite instruction on the way I held my face?” she was being humorous. Stiffler was using the term “held my face” to describe how she chose to wear a smile or not.
I hope that makes sense.
Oh. I completely misread “I” as “He:”
My bad…
No biggie. I do the same thing all the time.
Doesn’t mean strangers aren’t more than willing to touch random women, though! I’ve had my arms grabbed and been pushed/pulled around by people I don’t even know just because I look like a lady. Men can be awfully entitled to women’s bodies, and this is just a glimpse into what that means for women and folks who read as women.
I never realized I had the option of saying “no” and telling dudes to go fuck themselves, um, quite recently. I’m pissed that I wasted so much time trying to politely entertain creepy behavior for the sole reason that?? I was raised to be a doormat? And men seemed to expect that. I once had a (rather drunk) guy tell me, “You’re making this too hard,” as if I only set foot in that bar so he could pick me up and how dare I break that script.
My ex was in the same boat, and that was sort of the tipping point for me, seeing her unable to just flat out tell guys to go away. It was such a fucking waste of time to have to deal with that every time we went out.
The majority of the folks I work with now are men and it still seems weird to me that they act like decent human beings who don’t eventually lapse into creepy shit like this. And it shouldn’t seem weird. It shouldn’t.
You know, I usually like your comics but it’s cool that you didn’t even have a redeeming male character at all, that’s cool. I mean, I’ll keep reading but I don’t expect anything more than a sassy gif in return for this comment.
In lieu of a sassy gif, I’ll point out that the previous comic had no redeeming female side characters, either. And this entire comic was followed with a blog which, in its very first paragraph, says not all guys are like this and that we know lots of awesome ones. That’s the thing with short, 4-panel comics — you need to make your point simply and straightforwardly, something that I think would be lost if we squeezed in a sympathetic man to… I don’t even know. Stand up for us? Fight our fight? ‘Cause that didn’t happen, whereas the depicted events above actually did. Also, if we were to do that, I would feel it was only fair to go back and add an extra lady to the previous comic, just so the readers can rest assured women are being represented fairly as well.
I appreciate that we haven’t driven you off our comics with this latest one, and I’m sorry if our experiences happened to offend you in some way. I assure you, they offended us, too. That was sort of the point of the comic.
How do I upvote things here? Have a mental upvote.
I have always felt sorry for blondes; I hear they get it the worst. You’re a petite blonde so FYL. I’m a brunette with glasses so I get left alone more, but God help me if I should decide to read a book in public. “What are you reading?” “What are you doing?” “Heh heh, let me see that.” They will take the book from my hands and look at it. And I’m in LA.
> They will take the book from my hands
WTF?
Oh yeah. They take the book (“so, let’s see what you’re reading. Ke-roo-ack. Who’s that? What’s it about”), and this is the nice guys. Rude ones just take it and ask me what I’m doing. WHAT I AM DOING. I say reading. They ask why. It goes on on this vein until I give up and go home.
While their assholishness is obviously the most infuriating part, I’m also irked that they’d pretend to be halfway literate and yet be entirely ignorant of Jack Kerouac. I have so much rage today.
God. Stuff like this makes me wonder why women ever bother with men at all (and I say this as a guy).
My experiences exactly. I don’t ever wear makeup, or fix my hair(its a wavy frizzy mess naturally), so people tend to leave me well enough alone. But god forbid I read in public. Always up in my space. I have a book in a public area because i don’t want to talk to the public, not the other way around. There’s a reason I only put on makeup when I hang out with my bf or family, I don’t want to deal with this alllll the time. And I love wearing makeup and being girly. That being said, I don’t hate men or anything, I’m just very socially awkward with males and females alike. Hell, most of the time I sit in my car between classes at school instead of hanging out in the lobby just to make sure no one talks to me. I recognize some of you are really just trying to be nice..but..no. I can’t do.
Kira…are you me? Am I you? I’m so confused because I see the name Kira yet this could easily have been written by me…. lol. I like being around people, but I don’t like small talk. I love going to a crowded place and just reading. However, pretty women are supposed to like attention, so guys do this thinking it’s a compliment.
What is it with the “smile” demand? I’ve been getting that from men forever. Hello! Morbidly depressed!
I really don’t get it at all. People generally smile when they want to and/or have a reason to. If someone wants me to smile, they should at least hand me a kitten as incentive.
That may have to be my new response when commanded to smile. Thank you!
Also, thank you for this comic. I’m a straight-identifying cis-female who presents as very feminine (except wearing make-up – I’m too lazy to take the time). It’s a look that I like for myself, but that sure as hell doesn’t mean that men have the right to insist that I behave a certain way because I have long hair and big boobs. Reading this comic and the comments point out that I’m not imagining things and I’m not being “too sensitive.” Mind you, I didn’t think that I was, but it’s always nice to have confirmation.
The weird thing is that I usually smile for them, automatically, like a conditioned response. Thank You for Your generous response, Dear A and/or K. Next time I smile on demand, I’m going to say “Okay, now You owe me a kitten.”
As best as I can figure it out, while men are often expected to smile when they work in service jobs, part of the unwritten social-code is that women are supposed to smile all the time (because we’re there to serve others?)
The really weird thing is, I’ve had transwomen friends who have told me like, folks in the transwomen community like, include as part of their dialogue, a lecture that “women are supposed to smile, you need to smile if you want to pass.” Which, in lue of this comic, I just suddenly realized how bizarre that actually is (I don’t think the transfolk are being misoganist in that case, because a huge amount of gender stereotyping is encouraged and policed by other members of your same gender. “You’re not behaving like a proper little lady young miss,” and stuff like that and what not).
My favorite response, and one that I keep hoping that one day I’ll have the moxie to use, is to prop the corners of your mouth up with your middle fingers.
I’ve never commented on here before, but you prompted me out of lurking. I could go on a tirade about how many times I’ve been told to smile by complete strangers, and usually my reflex is to automatically smile uncomfortably like futuredirected said above. You’ve made my life with this comment, and now I can’t wait to be told to smile again so that I can try this out!
Ever considered moving to Vienna (Austria)? I find the stories about “smile demands” most strange and fascinating (not only these here, but from female US friends as well) and have come to the conclusion that I’m blessed to live in a city where a significant cultural trait is latent misanthropy (without the complete reservedness and humorlessness like, e.g. I experienced in northern Europe 🙂 ). It wouldn’t even occur to most people here (I won’t go as far as to say it doesn’t occur at all – after all, there’s hopeless douchebags everywhere) to be as aggressively intruding to complete (female) strangers. Much less asking them to smile, since the socially (by all genders) accepted answers would just be something between “Geh scheissn” (“F* off”) and – ironically – sarcastic laughter.
And no one would find it out of place if you had a cranky/surly look on your face. (Of course, everyone here complains about people not smiling/being cranky in general. Which in turn gives everyone a reason to be cranky. And everyone is happily unhappy! 😉 )
Disclaimer: I’m a rather massive male, therefore I (thankfully) don’t have first hand experience in those situations except as a (sometimes intervening) bystander. But I try to be aware of those situations and try to gather a lot of outside perspective through conversations and discussions with friends and aquaintances of all kinds, reading and discussing on the internet etc. etc.
Addendum to my disclaimer: While I don’t have any first hand experience as an adult, I do sadly have A LOT experience of harrassment and abuse as a youth with “rather feminine behaviour” (i.e. behaviour ascribed to the female gender in our society) raised in a rural village…
I’m shocked with the difference this hair does! O_O’
Sounds familiar. I got a pixie cut last month, and the reduction in dudes who honk at me, yell at me or approach me on public transport or the library is astounding. At first it made me feel ugly (and I’m not proud of this initial reaction – can you think of a more socially ingrained emotion than feeling ugly because dudes don’t ogle you?!) Eventually, though, I noticed that at work, guys LISTEN to me, at stores guys LISTEN to ME, and all that attention that I found obnoxious and unwanted is GONE, it was like learning a secret weapon.
I’ve had short hair before, but I recently got it cut the shortest it’s ever been (enough to have my neck shaved a little). A understand you 100%!
It’s funny, because when I had long hair I was overweight. I felt like I didn’t get much attention at all (I’d only been yelled / whistled at twice or so in my whole life), and I felt a weird pulling in two directions. I wanted attention, but when I got it, I just felt dirty. In fact, the first time, I was with my friend, and we both didn’t know whether to react positively or negatively, so we both yelled “fuck off!” at the guys (our first time cursing too, yay!).
But I’ve been through some health issues since then that have caused me to lose weight. Like, lots. So I’m basically “normal” weight now (but a little flabby, because I don’t have the energy to do anything, let alone exercise). And with no energy (and already being one of those girls who sucks at doing hair or generally being able to primp at all), I decided to cut it short. Even though I’m more of a “desirable” body shape now than I was, with having a super-short hairstyle, I’ve received literally no more attention to myself.
It’s nice, like you said, to have a secret weapon. I’ve discovered a confidence that I never had. I always felt inferior when I had longer hair. Even though I never wore makeup, styled it fancily, or wore super-pretty clothes (usually just t-shirts and jeans), I felt like I was entered into a Hunger Games-style competition with other women, and I wanted an out. I just didn’t know there was one.
As a MtF, the previous comic and this one perfectly represent the scariest part of transitioning to me. Maybe I’ll just go live in the woods.
Women in america are so much more civil then in Canada one time a dude grabbed my ex’s ass and before i could doing anything she knocked his ass to the ground with a single punch.
I’m Canadian, and reading that made me a bit happier.
I’d so love to say “at least this doesn’t happen where I live”, but since I’m male all I can say for sure is “at least I don’t do this”. Mainly because women scare the hell out of me.
Come to think of it, probably the only reason I’ve gathered enough courage to comment at all is because you are more masculine and therefore less scary.
“Boys will be boys”? Of course they’ll always be boys if people don’t raise them to be adults. Can’t be that hard to teach the little spods to think before they act. Parents got 18 years to ram that into their pointy little heads.
> “Boys will be boys”? Of course they’ll always be boys if people don’t raise them to be adults.
I love this.
Four years later, I just want you to know that you’re awesome. Woke af
I have a question for you but before I ask I hope you understand that I am not in any way trying to excuse my gender’s behavior or rationalize your totally 100% reasonable reactions. Please believe, that I am not that person.
Would these encounters have been so unwelcome if other women were attempting to flirt with you as much?
Without question, harassment is bad, and any unwanted attention is harassment so this is kind of a tricky area consent-wise. I think, generally, anybody has more or less the right to attempt to initiate conversation with anyone else. If any party in that experience makes it clear (as you obviously did) that they are not interested in continuing that exchange, that’s where it has to end. Consent (or lack thereof) has at this point been established. I think it is somewhat unrealistic to try to more formally establish consent at any point earlier on than “Hello”. I hope most of the men giving you this unwanted attention respected this and left you alone after you said “No”, and if they didn’t they were without a doubt 100% wrong.
Now, what you perceived as entitled demands and intrusions of personal space, I perceive as people trying to make the most of their short pre-consent-establishment window to display themselves as having attractive traits (confidence, assertiveness, etc). There exists a definite gender bias here but it is built on thousands of years of cultural and personal experience. Guys do this because A) guys have always done this and B) it works. Again, not all guys, some are more respectful, some are timid, but this is what society has taught is the ideal behavior.
This sounds so horribly like rape-culture and I would like to stress once more that I am in no way condoning their actions or placing any blame on you. Without question, you should have the right to appear however you like. However, until consent is established (which you 110% clearly did by saying “No” and I hope these men respected) it is a fact that the way we appear affects the way people treat us. Without directly intending to, your altered appearance has made you more attractive to more men and as a result has earned you their attention. If you find this unappealing there are “tricks” women in you situation have learned to avoid more of these types of approaches.
Now, again, if these men are harassing you (refusing to leave you alone after you say “No”) they are 100% in the wrong and there are no further actions you should be required to take. But before that “No”, please understand that, however misguided, these men are simply doing their best to appear as attractive to you as you do to them. The gender binary here is, I agree, unfair. But it is a self-feeding loop from both sides of traditional gender aisle.
If I have been unclear here and in any way appeared to be condoning harassment or any such behavior, please understand that it was through unintended language. I try to be very careful with my words, but if you find any of them distasteful, I hope you will give me the opportunity to clarify my position before you assume something about me.
Adam, I get from your repeated statements that you are not condoning harassment and are really trying to get at the difference between attempted friendliness and harassment. So, here it is: treat the woman as a person first. Not as a potential sexual partner. Would you approach a man with whom you would like to be friends and command him to smile? No, you wouldn’t. If you want to be flirtatious, there’s plenty of time later to find out what she’s like and how she prefers to be approached because at that point, you have gotten to know her as a person. Approach a strange woman as you would a stranger, period. Women are bombarded with inelegant proposals on a daily basis and if you want to stand out, I guarantee that treating them with respect and as a person will help you stand out.
I’ll let someone else address your third paragraph because that one sounds a lot more like the typical rationalization of “it’s always been like this, so get used to it” or “that’s society, oh well…” If society was unchanging, we’d all be living under liege lords and mucking about with pigs.
K Here:
I honestly thought long and hard about not even answering this lengthy repoir, because I think any woman or person who’s been through these situations can see that trying to make you understand what women face daily is like trying to teach a cat math. Basically: You’ll never get it. That’s okay, but you should definitely listen when others say “This is bad.”
As for your other points, if I can provide some insight, I will.
As a gay woman… YES! 100% I would be offended if a woman walked up to me while I was grocery shopping and told me to smile, if a woman told me bluntly to put my cell phone number into her phone while I was trying to listen to music on a bus, if a woman asked if she could watch my spouse and I while we had sex. Of course I’d be offended, even if it were a woman trying to “flirt” (be entitled to me).
A big point in that question that you’re missing, however, is the power structure in society is largely male dominated. Women are fearful of men, which is within their right to be, based on rape statistics, assaults, etc. Even Louis C.K. had a rant about how going out with a man is like going on a date with a half-bear, half-shark. If a full grown man can admit that women are rightly fearful of men, then surely there’s something here in the dynamics of male vs. female attention that you’re missing.
To elaborate, women such as myself not only have to constantly duck invasiveness like the type depicted, but we also have to be fearful of the result of it from men. If I tell him “No,” will he verbally assault me? Physically? Follow me home? This isn’t paranoia, this is just how life is for women. In a recent case, a woman was waiting at a bus stop when a man approached her and tried “flirting.” When she politely declined his attentions, he not only verbally assaulted her but also threatened to rape her. When the bus finally arrive, she asked the bus driver to call the police. The bus driver declined, taking the man’s side instead and even giving him a high-five as he climbed aboard the bus. There’s her article below. And these aren’t isolated incidents — many women in these comments and in the comments in the article linked have had similar experiences, if not all-out assaults or rapes because they declined to accept unwanted attention from men. It’s a terrifying situation to be in because you literally have to wonder “What type of behavior should I exhibit to keep myself out of harm’s way?” How is that any way to live? How is that any type of culture to defend?
http://theremina.tumblr.com/post/70314555185/i-was-threatened-with-violence-and-rape-and-begged-a
This entire paragraph is so riddled with insidious rape culture that I don’t think even you realize it. You’re basically telling women that if they don’t want unwanted attention then they should alter their appearance. You’re putting the blame directly on the women and saying that men have a right to try to have sex with any woman they deem attractive. Let me tell you a little about myself: I have naturally long hair that I’ve had since childhood, I have large breasts and I’m generally athletic. Most men seem to find this “attractive,” no matter how I dress or act. Now, what you’re saying is that I should alter my appearance or behaviors to better express my desire to be left alone? Should I wear a gorilla suit to hide my body? A veil over my face? In the summer, should I not wear tank tops even though I’m clearly overheating? Should I cut my hair off to better suit what men wouldn’t want?
And what of these tricks? Because I’ve tried all sorts of “tricks” and even in the comic, it doesn’t matter if you’re: grocery shopping, listening to music, or even WITH YOUR SPOUSE — unwanted attention still comes. Should I make a list of techniques to employ every time I leave the house? How is that fair? Why is the blame still on me?
I’ve worn my wedding ring, a bulky hoody, headphones and been reading a book when I’ve been harassed. I’ve had a heavy winter coat on when a man in his car stopped and asked if I wanted a ride — when I declined politely, he called me a bitch and sped off. I was terrified he would come back and grab me/hit me/etc. I’ve been at a former job in a silly apron and polo shirt, stocking 50lb bags, and still had men say lewd things in an attempt to “flirt.” I assure you, it doesn’t matter what you wear, what you’re doing, or even where you are — the entitlement never ends.
What you’re describing is rape culture, pure and simple. I know you’ve said it isn’t, but I assure you — it is. You’re saying a woman who dresses/looks/acts a certain way should expect to get attention from men and shouldn’t be entitled to her own person aesthetics/behavior if she doesn’t want that attention. That’s literally the argument of “Short Skirts Equal Rape” in a very watered down way. I don’t say this to be defensive at you, but because I honestly think this kind of thing is very ingrained in the way a lot of people think and it needs to stop. As a woman, I’m asking for it to stop. I want to live my life quietly and without pressure on me to conform to weird standards and telling me to trick men into thinking I’m less attractive or less available means a large chunk of my day is taken up by planning around men’s whims instead of just living my life. That’s not fair.
What I’m saying is this: I appreciate that you’re trying to discuss things rationally and politely, I really do. But in this situation, you really have to ask yourself “Will I ever know what this is like?” If the answer is “No,” then you should probably listen to others that do instead of coming to your own conclusions about how they should act. And it’s very easy to believe this isn’t such a dangerous problem when you know you’re a nice guy or most of the guys you know are nice and would never do anything wrong, but you only have to look at statistics and first-hand accounts from women to realize the problem is very real and very crushing. All we ask is that you listen, but it seems more is asked of us and more blame is put on us every day.
Wonderfully put. I’m not even much of a looker, and I get unwanted attention. I’ve been approached with short hair, long hair, girly shirts, oversized hoodies, makeup or none… you get the idea. I’ve been stalked, had my privacy invaded, had a guy try to pick the lock to my room, been blatantly and rudely ogled, had a book taken from my hands because a guy wanted to chat me up, and so on. I don’t put out “signals,” I don’t generally dress “provocatively” (and even if I did, that doesn’t invite such behavior). There are things I can’t feel comfortable doing without a guy friend to accompany me, which tells me that these jerks respect another man’s perceived claim on me more than they respect my wishes as a person. So thank you for shedding light on the subject for others to see.
When I think of the times a woman has flirted with me, it occurred over the course of a dozen or more encounters. We introduce ourselves, we make small talk, we share some personal information, we talk more, and then maybe, maybe, one of us asks the other out. Of course, it goes much faster at a lesbian bar, but it always starts with an introduction. “Hi, I’m Samantha” may not be a great pickup line, but it’s better than “Smile! I bet Your pretty when You smile.”
You said you considered not responding to his lengthy comment, but I’m glad you did write a respond. As a carefree male I honestly never really put much serious thoughts about half of what you said, and it certainly wouldn’t occur to me any day soon if you hadn’t said it. Thank you K., I learned new things today.
*throws confetti* YAY! I freaking LOVE when people actually learn things, especially about important issues that people usually never budge on. Right on. Things like this keep me from disavowing humanity entirely.
Wow, this is so well put. I’m gonna have to start linking this to people. Thank you thank you.
Also, one other thing that some people tend to use as an excuse to blame women is that men are biologically hardwired to seek out potential mates. To that I would add that maybe that is so, but we have a huge brain that we use all the time to determine if our urges or instincts are morally okay. Considering we’re not just rutting animals anymore, that excuse holds no water in our world today.
And people wonder why when I was twelve I took scissors to my hair and cut it all off. Why I didn’t dress very ‘feminine’ until I was nearly 30 and learned to tell someone to ‘fuck off’ and I am definitely going to remember the middle finger smile idea. That’s definitely a good one!
I think the last panel hit the nail on the head. The feminine & masculine gender roles is most certainly a product of our societal allowance & blatant encouragement of it.
to anyone calling this misandry…
Look closely at the three examples above, or read on, as I have quoted them:
“smile”, “hey, put your number in my phone”, and “can I watch you two later?” are not examples of flirting.
they seem more like demands/commands, do they not? no amount of boyish charm can make up for the fact that you just told me what to do.
now, I understand that there’s an onus to be creative when you flirt, having a good icebreaker, and to appear witty, funny, or if that’s not possible, “zany”…
but stuff like this just tells the girl you’re thinking: “I’m great, I know I’m great, and you should feel privileged to be woo’d by me.”
You might think it’s tired and trite, but a simple “hello”, or a compliment can go so far to break the ice… though beware, some girls are unaccustomed to compliments, as they are so rare in today’s society, and might not know what to do.
As for asking me for my number out of the blue… that’s a tricky one but generally, if you realize I’ve just written down pi, and call me out on it, then you might have yourself a date (seriously, the area-code even matches).
And this is kind of why I’m glad I’m a very average looking lady – men leave me alone.
I’m really sorry you had to put up with this. I hope it doesn’t deter you from presenting how you see fit. 🙁
If my mother had ever seen my brother and I picking on a girl like that (not that we ever would), she would’ve beat our asses… and probably asked how we liked being picked on BY a girl. ;P That “boys will be boys” thing is total BS. Also… that third guy is a total dick. The others may be inappropriately flirtatious, but that third one is way over the top.
Thank you. I hope pointing this out make parents more aware and society less permissive.
ive just started growing out my buzz cut this year and all the women I work with can’t stop complimenting me on my choice to be girly again. I never stopped being feminine when I decided to shave my head. still wore my make up the same, wore the same outfits, did the same job. But the length of my hair put me in a different world to a lot of the women around me. I remember men making comments like the ones in the comic when I had long hair. just wanted to share another part of the looks judgments and reactions. I love your comics! thanks for sharing your experience!
Commenting is scary… Okay let’s do this.
My mother rather often says “oh he’s at that age where he picks on/hits/beats on/bullies a girl because he likes her” … I’ve heard other people say this too. Is that a legitimate thing? Do children… Er boy children specifically beat up or pick on girl children they find attractive?
Hell no. Well, properly raised boys don’t, anyway. If my mother ever hear of me doing something like that she’d tan my hide.
As Wayfarer said above, it’s a kind of mentality that just makes it seem like a normal behaviour simply because… people are too used to it. And as K. said, those actions and behaviors and the mentality itself is the very pure and simple rape culture that we often fail to realize it for what it is.
So to answer your question… No, your mother is wrong, and other people who say that are too. It is not a legitimate thing to do, at all, and shouldn’t be encouraged by any means.
Personally though, I gotta ask… Do you seriously have to ask this? Because honestly, I’m quite surprised. I thought this was common sense… But then again, in away I’m glad you did ask, instead of blindly believe in whatever people tell you. (and before you point out the irony, no, I’m not telling you to just believe in what people on here and I say, but think for yourself about what is right, and chances are you’ll agree with us.)
I just re-read the comic, and erm… to put it simply, the answer to your question is that big “NO!” uttered by A. at the end of the comic. Never really noticed how well the point was presented this way in the comic. GJ guys
I think Fin was asking if they DO it, not if it’s okay or not.
The obvious answer is yes, it happens. Otherwise it would not be in this comic. How often does it happen? Not sure, but it’s common enough most girls have heard it in their childhood at some point, myself included.
I think it’s that they want attention from a person they like but don’t know how to ask for it correctly, and somehow or other they got it into their heads to pick on or hurt the person they want attention from. More than likely they witnessed someone else doing it.
Yeah, it’s hearing about rubbish like that which makes me so glad my parents raised me right.
I’m finding these comments to be an interesting social experiment. Thanks for illustrating your experience. It’s been really enlightening.
God, this comic makes me feel depressed. Seriously, who the hell thinks this is misandry!? I mean, the absence of courtesy, personal space, tact, awareness and empathy is mind boggling. They have no emotional intelligence whatsoever.
I have my own theory that builds on this. It’s dangerous to generalize, but it’s like this generation of men, and upcoming teens, are desensitized by the abundance of porn and the easy sexual gratification portrayed in entertainment media. From excessive fear and shame to all out “sex is an obligation”. I’m no saint, I’ve watched tons of porn. Enough to notice that eventually it feels vapid, empty, and redundant. It gets boring, no matter how many positions using genitalia you create (high quality stuff let’s you forget that for a moment or two). It sells you that promise of gratification: so easy to get on the internet, but so elusive in real life. The guys in this comic to me are those guys who can’t tell the difference. They are trying to transfer the fantasy of porn unto the persons they encounter in real life. They got bored with porn and couldn’t figure out why, and so they go trying to recreate that elusive feeling in real life. They know something is missing, but are too emotionally inept to know what.
This fantasy effect recreates itself in other places, like in the bar scene using alcohol and drugs as the ticket to fuckland: no consequences or inhibitions (until you’rs sober). Porn can portray a similar situation where sexual desire trump any consequence, like violence or reducing someone to a fucktoy. (I know not ALL porn is like this, I’m talking about an interpretation of porn)
It is all for the promise of a very happy ending. The happy ending is suppose to be a feeling of ultimate satisfaction, masculinity, and achievement. But any person knows that once the deed is done, any of those feelings are fleeting. Pornstars never show any emotion after except “Let’s go again!” Some people need to realize there is emotional investment in the act, whether you wanted it to happen or not.
I’m wondering if the slow acceptance of homosexuality is also being used as justification or double standard for making women and people toys for gratification. Hey, they can’t get pregnant, so clearly they only have sex, because it’s fun and has no consequences! DUR HURRR! What are feelings? Who cares! Clearly they won’t say no!
Anyways, that’s what I see in the men in this comic. Guys who want an easy ride to fuckland: where my ego and penis cum first.
That’s a really dangerous generalization, and in general a very faulty one. Not saying that you’re necessarily wrong, but apparently it’s much more complicated than that.
(And stop thinking about/referring to porn in every situation possible, you nasty! I mean I’m cool with that, but there’re so many aspects to think about and not just porn and sex, and just basing your theories around porn (or any one given subject) means you’re missing out on a lot of other stuff, making your generalizations flawed or severely lacking at best. There aren’t only two kinds of people in this world, mind you! :D)
That is a very odd (and seemingly biased) generalization. I am not saying you are wrong about the porn thing (although I do not think that is the case for everyone or the main cause) but the homosexuality thing is not really accurate. Most people who are in a homosexual relationship are in it because they like the person, not because they can’t get pregnant. That is actually pretty insulting and I am a straight cis-woman. It is an attraction to the person themselves like any other relationship and even if sex was the reason, you do realize there are such things as birth control and such right? And if they didn’t want to use condoms or whatnot (which I am sure is what you were thinking) there are still STDs, so either way they need to use protection.
As for the porn thing, I think you seem to have your own obsession with it as I do not think that everything in life ties back to it. It isn’t looking for excitement, it is usually people not being taught to respect others or feeling entitled to things and you can’t blame porn for all of that (there may be a few cases but that isn’t the big one). You may want to re-think your generalization because I think you are having trouble looking past how you feel about porn to see the whole picture ._.
Disclaimer: <>
This type of crap also leaves non-pushy men in weird place. I mean, society teaches us that to get a date, you have to approach the woman you’re interested in. And it’s true; women rarely pursue men directly, so waiting for a woman to pick you up or otherwise show unambiguous interest tends to be a lost cause (especially if you’re bad at reading the signals or playing the games that women use to try and avoid slut shaming).
So if you don’t want to spend the next few years single and sexless, you’ve gotta make the move. Obviously, the cold approach–what these entitled pricks in the comic are doing–isn’t a good idea.
But is it any better to express interest in friendship under false pretenses? To act like you want to be friends, when you really want someone to snuggle and make out with? Down that road lies the infamous “friend zone” and “nice guy syndrome”, which makes you just as dickish (http://feminspire.com/nice-guy-syndrome-and-the-friend-zone/).
Trying to date from among your existing pool of female friends can have similar results, with the bonus risk of losing the friendship to awkwardness.
I suppose that leaves approaching women in settings where people go to be approached–singles bars and dating websites, maybe some other places I’m not aware of. That’s a step in the right direction, I guess, but far from perfect. Singles bars aren’t happy places for introverts or people who don’t like to drink, and dating sites have their many flaws.
With either one, you’re still just one guy in a constant parade who are approaching her without the slightest clue whether she’s attracted to you. There’s a ton of competition, and you’ve got to make yourself vulnerable to rejection over and over again. So even singles bars and dating sites are a crappy option.
I guess my question to ladies is this: how can guys approach women we’re interested in without being That Creepy Guy or a false friend? How can we tell if a woman is attracted to us or open to being approached? I’ve yet to figure this one out, and the culture just tells us to just “man up”, “be assertive”, and that “women like confidence!”. Not particularly helpful.
I just can not agree with you as a person and as a woman. What you are talking about is not dating, it’s having intimate relations with someone. Why would you have any problem getting to know someone first? What is this false friend thing? If you want to just get it on with someone then you can at least be introduced before you make your intentions clear of “no friendship just sex”. If you are wanting to date someone then most likely you should get to know them a little before you get to that stage. Maybe that’s why so many people have crazy “ex” stories because they literally jumped in genitals first into a relationship before they realized that person was bad news. God I feel old at 25.
Ps. Believe it or not I was so shy that I had maybe answered our home telephone a total of 5 times by the time I was 16 because I had such bad anxiety. I still have managed to date a few people and get out about even going so far as to be the forward one in a relationship.
Apparently I messed up the disclaimer with weird syntax, so here it is: I realize that my worries are played on the world’s tiniest violin compared with the women who put up with these jackwads. But I can only speak from my own experience, so as a standard-issue straight dude, I’ve gotta come from that place.
I am going to direct you to Captain Awkward, a random stranger who writes an advice column on the Internet. She responded to a question rather like yours and perhaps this will offer you some insight.
http://captainawkward.com/2013/04/22/477-again/
For myself, I can only say that the best way, and perhaps the only decent way, to interact with anyone is to treat them as a person first, and a potential sexual partner second…if not even lower down on the list. If you don’t have any desire to know them whatsoever–if the only human camaraderie you can muster is “friendship under false pretenses”–perhaps it would be best not to approach them at all. People have value beyond your personal assessment of their attractiveness.
I have a disclaimer of my own for this paragraph: I know there are people who are truly and completely unable to read body language and to assign mental states to or identify the emotions of the people around them. If the previous sentence applies to you, then stop reading. Most people, however, are bad at reading body language the way they are bad at remembering names–they just don’t bother. Body language is something that can be studied and learned. If improving your social skills, and thus your social interactions, is important to you, then take the time to learn to understand it. Body language can tell you when someone wants to be left alone before you even walk up to them. Other than that, the idea you set up so you could dismiss it is, in fact, a rather good one. Approach people in settings where people go to be approached. Full stop.
Normally I am all for Captain Awkward, they are the best ever. But I think http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/ might speak more clearly to you, or at least work well added to the Captain’s advice.
You want a girlfriend. Cool. What do you have to offer them? You are taking your resume and writing down three words “I want money” and submitting it. Are you getting callbacks? No. It’s an equal exchange. You give the workplace your skills and time and work, they give you money. Just the desire to have money does not set you apart. Lots of people want money, what are you bringing to the table?
As for dating under false pretenses, there is an excellent chance that if you approach a girl and act friendly, she’s going to assume you’re calculating your chances of getting your Y-fighter into her docking bay. So first, look for clues. Does she have positive body language, seem interested, act like she wants to stay and keep talking with you? Is she closed off, answering with short single words, making excuses to leave, mentioning her boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife loudly and frequently? Do not try this with someone who is required to interact with you as their job, while they’re on the job.
And don’t say things like “You’re such a great friend, I’d never want to ruin our friendship with dating* Unless you 100% mean it. I had multiple guy ‘friends’ who swore on stacks of bibles they weren’t interested in ever dating me when questioned, it was just friendship. The moment my husband-to-be moved in, they all vanished and stopped responding to e-mails/texts/calls to hang out.
What do you like to do? Are you an avid show rabbit breeder? Go to shows, meet people, get to know them as people, and when you meet someone who gets a thrill every time you mention custom cage systems, and who makes you fluttery when they talk about grooming tools, you can be happy together.
I mean, I may be doing it wrong? But I went for ‘best friend who also makes me happy in my pants’ rather than a Girlfriend or Boyfriend and it seems to have worked.
Josh, I’m a little late to the party, but here you go. Let’s get some shit straight first. Women love sex, and they are nearly just as shallow as men about it, especially now that the one sided risks of sex are mostly solved by proper birth control. I dare say they love sex more than men. If you have ever seen a woman come to a real orgasm this should be apparent. Now with what frequency they want it is a different matter entirely. I’d wager that your average late 20 something woman has far more sexual partners than your average late 20 something man. They will likely lie about this because of slut shaming between men and women which is of course wrong. Men will of course lie about this number to impress their friends which is also false and wrong. If a man is well above average, that may be different, but we aren’t talking about the genetically gifted here. More on that in a second.
Women typically know if they will consider fucking you within the first minute of interaction, if not before that based on nothing more than your looks. You may think women are these super deep creatures that are emotionally, spiritually, and intellectually superior to men, but they aren’t. We’re all people here, and we’re all equals in this regard. Put another way it’s all animal instinct on both sides of the divide. It’s no different for her than when you see a girl across the bar and find her attractive. You know nothing about her, yet there is a part of your mind that is telling you to interact with her and ideally have sex if she doesn’t disqualify herself in some other obvious way. The game of attraction is highly competitive, and it is clear that in this case women are the judges. As you pointed out, you will have to approach. Confidence is judged, and if you don’t at least step over the low bar of approaching how confident could you possibly be? Now let’s talk about some other qualities that will be judged. I’ve seen your Facebook profile, and you are not a good competitor. Work on your physical presentation. That’s your number one problem right there, and until you are undeniably and overtly attractive you will be seen as creepy. For example I’m sure you’ve seen the scenario where male initiated overtly sexual and forward moves that violate personal space and would be considered “rape culture”. This will be an accepted and well remembered experiences for many women when approached by the right (read incredibly good looking and socially validated) man. I’m not talking about the grocery store here, but I’m sure you’ve been to that party. That may be fucked up itself, but blame nature, not women as people. Josh, welcome to the lonely side of the double standard, you creepy rapist.
You are right to bring up the friend zone, nice guys, and initiating a conversation under false pretense. If you do not indicate that you are interested sexually almost immediately, she will relegate you to an area of her mind where the idea of having sex with you does not exist. You didn’t ask to be put there, but because she didn’t get that initial spark, and you did not convey your intent you get defaulted as a non-sexualized person. If you later attempt to break out of this, you will be seen as a deceiver, whether or not you intentionally /pretended/ to be her friend first, or were just ineffective at communicating your desire. Don’t make friends with women if your initial thought is that you want to have sex with them. Do make friends with women that you do not intend to have sex with. They can easily become some of the dearest people in your life. If you do happen to make friends with a woman and you later both come to a point of attraction, that can be different, but that’s not really what we are talking about here. In order to get around this one needs to initiate a /normal/ conversation while subtly conveying physical desire. This can be a look, a light but appropriate touch, a tone of voice, or even the setting (singles bar, online-dating). These are place specific, and specific to how the woman is presenting herself. It should be apparent for instance that if she is in a single’s bar dressed to the nines, alone, and generally has an open body posture she is probably looking to meet people. A woman on a train, head down in a book… not so much. To bring it back to the comic, none of the guys did it right. You should be able to read her cues. Hopefully, on approaching if the reaction is negative you will know to abort so you can save everyone some face. You may be told no outright which is fine. Take the rejection in stride, and excuse yourself politely. You may be allowed to continue engaging in conversation/flirtation interaction. Learn how to hold a conversation, and also how to keep it charged. You don’t want to lose the initial mood. Eventually press to a number, venue change (yay, you’re on a date all of the sudden!), or go all the way if the attraction is over the top. Setting and time of day usually dictates the next move. Get some experience, and figure the rest out from there.
Of course this will post will likely be met with all kinds of anger and rationalization. Never mind the fact that I’m not shaming women for being sexual, engaging in hook-ups, or judging men as sexual objects. Have fun calling me a misogynist, regressive, anti-fem, or any number of other labels that will make me immediately a quantifiable and loathsome quantity. I think you would be surprised to find out my personal details and what a protected class, special snowflake I really am. I however find it more fun to see my words judged without the shields of identity politics that wrap me in a protective, criticism immune bubble. Girls, next time you let a man in to your sexual world though, think of this post, and try to remember when you felt that first tingle… what emotion set you down the path you took. I bet it wasn’t verifying that his gender politics met your stringent guidelines for sexing. The only people that care if you are a “good girl” are yourselves, your parents (possibly), your female peers, and the most regressive parts of our society. Come to think of it, that’s a lot… and has serious repercussions. So maybe it is best that you just keep up the charade. Haha, nah! Be the change.
– Slutzilla
I’ve always felt some pride in being a nice guy and in trying my best to treat women with respect.
For all my efforts, reading these comments has shown me a couple areas where I may have been making someone uncomfortable or put-upon without meaning to.
I hope more women feel courageous enough to speak up about what is and isn’t okay when talking to them. Then at least the men who /want/ to treat women right can have the right idea.
“For all my efforts, reading these comments has shown me a couple areas where I may have been making someone uncomfortable or put-upon without meaning to.”
It is super awesome that you can realize some areas that you may have messed up in and admitted that. Props.
i feel lucky, because in my country, Hungary (Europe) this kind of attitude is not so common, at least I rearely experience it. I won’t say never, because it happens that I get catcalled or something similarly rude. But I cannot imagine how can it be possible to be bothered all the time, and I really hate that a lot of men feel entitled to women’s time. Things really need to change.
Well, the first three never happend to me [only comments about what I’m reading or laughing about my figure >.>”], but the last hit me hard…Especially, when “Boys will be boys” was talked by my female teacher few times in elementary school :/ I hate this sentence :/
“Hey, put your number in my phone!”
“Who the hell are you?”
I have the same experience as Racoongod here. I live in Norway and I dont think I have ever seen someone get approached like that in public, attractive or not. There is clearly a cultural difference here and its pretty interesting to see this form the perspective of a women.
I have always been amazed (and pretty disgusted) by how much society controls what people say. Not the state or some patriarchy, but how pople mean and think what they do because someone told them too. I know a lot of guys who has an horrible attitude to women as the weak gender. And they dont know. The worst thing is that they arent conscious of this on a higher level. Just because they pick up so much bad stuff. And they tell me im childish when im reading comics like this.
These are inherited from parents, from school and sourroundings, but it doesnt seem like anyone notices. Its all from an age when women could not vote and there were black slaves.
I’m a norwegian girl and have experienced this kind of rude behavior by norwegian men. But it might not appeare in such a large scale, and, in my experience at least, it happens mostly when guys are drunk.
The funniest comments are when a guy approches a table of women and asks: “Are you sitting here all by your selves, girls?”. lol.. what a logic
Guys have shouted my ears off, telling me what an ignorant, ungrateful, ugly bitch I am when i’ve declined their, often unpolite, approaches in a direct way and with a rather irritated voice.
These kind of mens reaction always get me a bit puzzled, because even the one who “only” gets irritated by my “no, thanks” seem to expected some what of a gratitude from me by the very fact that they’ve chosen me to be the centre of attention [sic!].
The worst part (the fright not counted) is that I’ve found my self feeling rude, harsh and having a bad conscience about being so prudish. I mean, wtf??
This shit happens in life. I’ve had been asked “can I watch?” to “Want to have a threesome?” at a bus stop to “Are lesbiaaaaaannnnsss?” as me and my boo were getting out of the bus on a different day. I’ve seen old ladies starting to pray in the bus because I was holding her hand. Or a jerkbag recording us in the subway because I was kissing her like I’ve seen many “normal” couples do. The worst case was a piece of shit (AN EMPLOYER!) passing a commentary (DURING A JOB INTERVIEW) on how in couples, one is a butch while the other is usually a horny cat, while nodding towards me. Frankly, it’s so ridiculous that I don’t even know how to react sometimes. It’s just beyond me how some people feel entitled to pass these comments, as if they’re allowed to be this rude because there is no bro involved. THIS is what pisses me off the most: they feel ENTITLED without showing any sign of awareness of their impoliteness. In those moments, these people forget that I am a human being just like them: my girlfriend and I become a concept, an object to stare at, to film with an iPhone, to question, to sneer at without any feeling of guilt. Fuck all these people, they wouldn’t give all this BS to a young hetero couple. Where’s MY slice of respect at??
PS I adore your comic, and I love you for bringing up this point in your cartoon awesomeness.
Thank you so much for this great comic, and thank you all for the discussion in the comments below! Many of the opinions stated here put things into words that I tried to express for a long time but didn’t really know how.
I’m so sick and tired of the usual “Well, if you don’t want to get harassed, dress differently! Wear a potato sack! Or a burka! Otherwise you want it!” that you get to hear once you complain about unwanted, intruding attention. I want to have the same priviledge as men, dressing up how I want and not having to think every morning what kind of attire will get me through the day harassment-free. And then having to respond to comments that indicate I should be flattered by random people being gross, without any respect, intruding my privacy or even being threatening (because that’s, at least for me, also a huge part of the problem – as you said in one of the comments above, as a woman, you never know how someone is going to react to a rejection, and I have had men blocking my way just to “flirt” with me. Charming. It scares the s**t out of me.)
That being said – do you plan to/could you maybe offer this comic as a T-shirt? I would love to wear it.
Thank you very much!
Panel 3 really dug at me for some reason. I don’t understand the sexual draw that some hetero men have to lesbians (and I guess that goes for hetero women into yaoi and such). Why would you want to watch? To instill that you have nothing to offer the couple? How unnecessary you are to their satisfaction? To be a witness to a huge tease? I just don’t get it.
eeeyup. though on a much smaller scale, even i’ve experienced tastes of this kind of crap. i’m a brunette female and i’m painfully ordinary, i blend into the background easily and i do nothing to fight that most days- i rarely wear makeup (too lazy), when i do it’s only a touch of eyeliner and mascara, and i am most comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt. (looking good requires more effort than i am willing to make.) about the only thing physically remarkable about me is my rather… let’s call it ‘curvaceous’ arse. and before someone makes the clothing=’you want it’ argument, there is NOTHING i can do to downplay it or hide it- long sweaters and jackets ride up so they’re sitting on top like it’s a damn shelf, skirts are literally several inches shorter in the back than they are in the front, decorated back pockets invite nightmares (but good luck finding anything else)… don’t even get me started on swimsuit shopping.
so last semester my friend (who is way cuter and definitely way the hell more fashionable than me) and i were walking to the grocery store when a school bus drove along the road behind us, and we heard shouts. as the bus passed, a couple male students- they looked about middle school aged, from the quick glimpse i saw- were hanging out the windows, grinning at us. i think one of them waved.
granted, i’m not SURE what they said- it was in french; i go to school in Quebec, even though i’m an anglophone who doesn’t speak a lick of french- nor am i sure if they were calling to myself, my friend, or possibly/probably to both of us.
but i’m pretty sure, just going off of context (two girls, otherwise alone, walking down an empty street, one is very fashionable and chic and the other has nice long hair and a prodigious ass poking out from underneath her sporty sweater, hearing shouts from passing males) that i/we got cat-called by a bunch of middle-schoolers.
as a second-year university student, i got cat-called by a bunch of eighth-graders (tops).
am i the only one who feels like there’s something just a little extra-skeevy about that? is that just me?
i mean, it’s not that i felt threatened by THEM SPECIFICALLY in that instance, but rather that i was/am frightened of what they could/would become. if they think it’s okay now, they’ll think it’s okay later, only then they’ll have the mass and muscle to act on it. the thought of encountering one of those boys when they’ve bulked up, or someone who was just like them at that age, on a dark empty street; that DOES scare me a bit.
I can also give examples of situations I’ve been in with the female gender that should be addressed as well, and not viewed as everyday things in the eyes of others.
Huh, I’ve never experienced any of this, and I’m a normal looking slim female with long blonde hair and big enough to notice boobies. Maybe it’s because I’m Scandinavian, we don’t normally bother strangers here unless we are drunk…no matter if they present as female or male:P
Lol I always found it funny how guys always hit on me even when at work or on my way to work I have guys giving compliments, construction site workers whistling, etc. and I don’t even look good because I don’t wear make-up to work, wear black trousers, t-shirt and pants. I do accept that as positive, though, lightens the mood somewhat.
I am being told to smile and say “thank you/sorry”, however, by women. Having lived in Germany and moved to UK where the levels of politeness are too high I often get told that because that’s polite and stuff. It doesn’t mean I don’t say that, in the UK there are just so many more moments in life that you are expected to act in certain ways is just mind boggling. When working I do try to strain a smile because customer service and shit, but when I’m on my way to the shop thinking that I still have to do dishes/walk the dog/sign divorce papers/sell a kidney to pay rent I do not feel obliged to smile to everyone I encounter.
I do wish that at least once a woman would hit on me in any way, lol.
Yesterday I wore makeup to work for the first time in ages. Mostly just because I’d had about an hour to prepare (waste) and just bought this really cool turquoise mascara I wanted to try on. I work in retail in a predominantly male department (computers). The entire day, almost every male customer I greeted winked at me when he said hello back. This has NEVER happened to me before. Two customers also called me something along the lines of “sugar” (“schat(je)”, if you speak Dutch) while I was writing their receipt. Also, more customers than usual approached me with questions about coffee machines/vaccuum cleaners, and seemed even more surprised than usual when I told them I have no idea about those, and they need to see a colleague that works in that department.
>_< Eeeesh… My apologies for the idiots who share my gender.
Curiously, this is something I’ve been having a lot of issues with lately. I grew up in a fairly gender-neutral household(home-schooled, working on a farm in the middle of nowhere, me and my brother were essentially raised just alike) and when I got out in ‘society’, it really shocked me how people treated women.
I got the ‘smile’ thing a lot, to the point where my grandmother explained that having a fake smile was a ‘lady-like’ thing to do, got told that I needed to have sex with my boyfriend after we’d been dating for six months(by my counselor, no less!), and was informed that I wouldn’t ever get a husband if I didn’t start wearing make-up and push-up bras because ‘Men want a pretty package’.
I’m now 23 and I’m still encountering this behavior. I can’t go to a concert at a bar without being harassed by men that honestly think that I’m ‘looking for a good time’ in my blue jeans and ratty Pink Floyd T-shirt. Even walking down the street, I have had people pull over and try to pick me up and ask me how much I cost! I’ve had men that walked up to me and asked me if I would have sex with them when I was with my SO. I’ve been beaten and raped before simply because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and have had people verbally and physically abuse me just because I don’t want to jump in the sack with them the first time they call me beautiful.
Sometimes, dressing masculine doesn’t even help. And it makes me more than a little angry that I can’t dress and act the way I see fit without encountering situations that shouldn’t be permitted in the first place.
It just seems like this culture is getting more that a little scary for women…
I’m sorry you’ve experienced so much awful stuff. I just want to point out, I don’t think it’s getting scarier. If anything, it’s getting better. Check out histories of women’s rights to see how bad we used to have it. But with the internet and social media and 3rd wave feminism, we’re gaining an awareness of how many problems STILL exist, even after all the progress we’ve made. It’s shocking how much crap women still put up with after all this time.
As a trans woman in my mid 20s that started transition 2-3 years ago, this comic is super-relatable. Walking around in public as a dude I was relatively androgynous (occasionally bordering on faux-masculine) and generally ignored for the most part… so I didn’t really think about it. I could walk around almost anywhere, at any time of day, essentially without a care in the world.
Now living as a woman I’m hyper-aware of my surroundings all the time, and am frequently approached by random guys in uncomfortable circumstances. (To the extent I’ve had guys show me their junk in a parking lot before in a “pick-up” attempt, seriously WTF?) I don’t think I ever felt the need to carry anything for protection as a guy, yet now I keep a stun gun in my purse almost everywhere I go.
And when I have a girlfriend, the random dude popping out of nowhere asking to join or watch is definitely all too-common. That is one of the interesting side-effects of being a trans (or trans*) person I guess though; the opportunity to really understand the variety of ways society reacts to gender or lack thereof.
I hope you stay long enough to read it.
I had really short hair for about a year to get rid of chlorine damage and split ends. And society didn’t like that I had short hair and small boobs.
. And this one time I got on the train and I was having trouble putting my bike on the rack and this girl helped me. I thanked her and sat down.
The guy next to me however felt the need to bother me and talk about how I should ask the girl out because she was cute (which she was) . And that I wouldn’t find another girl like her. Etc.
And he proceeded to annoy me with other boy lessons, while also telling his girlfriend how much he was going to lick her boobs later. And saying a few disrecpectful things about females. (how she didn’t mind, I don’t know how)
At some point I got annoyed at him for bothering me and I was mad at some of the stuff he was saying and turned to him and said. “I’m a girl”
He said. “Well damn. you fooled me. I couldn’t tell. ”
As he is leaving the train he turns around, points at my boobs and has ENOUGH nerve to say. “You should get those pumped up”
I was wearing a tank top that day. I wasn’t annoyed at being mistaken as a guy. I was ok with that.
But I was mad that he had enough nerve to tell me to get a boob job so he and society could tell I was a girl.
Just hang around emo guys like me silly, we mostly don’t speak at all or we are extremely talkative and only get “naughty'” when drunk
I find it very strange that more people are talking about the first panel than the third. Yes, it’s disrespectful to tell a woman to look “pretty” by smiling, but the third panel just completely blows me away in terms of disrespect. More people seem worried about a guy telling a woman to smile than some random guy walking up to two people he perceives to be lesbians and asking them if he could watch them have sex. It baffles me that anyone could possibly think that is an okay thing to do, and it really shows that the fight for equality for the LGBT community still has a long way to go.
I’ve found that guys started leaving me alone when I wore my binder and after I started shaving the side of my head (I have an undercut). Well, that and I’ve started having a much surlier persona when I’m out and about, I get approached by people who want to ask me for help finding something (no matter where I am, everyone thinks I work there. Sigh. The curse of retail, it follows me!) but guys tend to stay away, and I’m so glad for that. Once on the bus before I started doing my hair that way and binding this guy kept grabbing at my hands and my thighs, and I was too shy to say anything until he tried to touch my groin, when I spun around and snarled “What do you think you’re doing?!” loudly enough for the bus driver to hear, and she turned and gave him the glare of the ages.
Why can’t people keep their hands/eyes/mouths to themselves?
I feel like my whole life could be a variation on this experiment. I’m extremely androgynous, and basically always present as such, but I’ve got a twin sister who is very feminine and traditionally pretty. I can go pretty much anywhere and do anything without any harassment at all – of course there have been one or two particularly pestilent assholes, but on the whole, people ignore me, and that’s awesome. But my sister? She can’t take the train to work or walk down a street without cat-calls or worse. She gets the first two all the freaking time. I’d worry about her, but it turns out they’re messing with the wrong twin – I’m shy and afraid of conflict, but Molly will hulk out on anyone who messes with her.
Ooo pet peeve in the first panel! I hate being told to smile. I am not a trick dog who follows your command. That’s why I’m not gonna smile just because you tell me to. I don’t feel like smiling.
The last time a guy did that I said, “How about this, if I smile that means I get to push you off the overpass onto the train tracks below. Sound good?”
“That’s murder!”
“I’m aware of that.”
He left me alone after that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrAcV2ywnqc
And people are not punishing or at least not condoning this kind of attitude at a young age and wonder why their older son has problems with bullying little girls and abusive behaviour as an adult? It’s a slippery slop!!!
I, too, cut my hair. Got alot less unwanted attention from that. I even tried being a guy on the internet once, like you did, and gained alot more respect.. It’s kinda fucked up, tho it seems like that changes abit as maturity hits more people and they stop being as shallow as they used to be.
I would like to apologize on behalf of all men for those morons trust me we don’t like those types either it is embarrasing that some men just aren’t able to think with more than their lower half head!
If it makes you feel any better, I am about as straight as a ruler, but apparently handsome as all get out. I did not discover my handsomeNess till I traveled to the Philippines and was propositioned by almost every girl and and gay man. The rest stared at me with barely disguised list. After two years of that I finally understood how women must feel just walking down the street.